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Author Topic: A wee-bit of a problem  (Read 5204 times)

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Charles King

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A wee-bit of a problem
« on: December 07, 2006, 03:49:46 PM »

Straining my brain over how much dialect to include in the first person narration of the story I'm writing. I feel much more comfortable dropping it into dialogue, but over the course of a novel I'm not sure if the Irish dialect all the time will just be extremely hard to read as well maintain.  Really don't want to change to a close 3rd either. ... So besides thoughts on the above, if anyone knows of stories that successfully carried a dialect, but especially Irish, through a narrative, but weren't hard to read (no Joyce, please) that would also be helpful. Thanks in advance.

Charles  8)
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JIM DOHERTY

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2006, 04:46:32 PM »

Charles,

Speaking as someone who grew up listening to Irish brogues, I'd be very careful even using it in dialog, let alone narration.

I'd try to suggest it by the cadences of the sentences and the word choices rather than by trying to reproduce the phonetic sounds produced, particularly in the narration, but, to a degree at least, in the the dialog, as well.

If you have an old Irish woman who's just buried one of her children, for example, say:

"Sure, it's  heart-scaldin' to be out-livin' him who I brought into this world.  Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, it's a terrible thing."

Except for dropping the g's, the sound of the brogue is suggested by nothing except the way she forms her sentences and I think most of your readers would fill in the accent on their own.

Ingrid

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2006, 05:16:50 PM »

Ditto what Jim said.  Be careful with dialect.  Too much of it irritates the reader, and if it is ever off, it really sounds bad.

Ingrid
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Lance Charnes

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2006, 07:57:39 PM »

Inserting the appropriate local phrases/slang helps set the tone, too. I have an English MC and a major secondary character who is Scottish (and has a strong accent). By using this method plus Jim's suggested technique, I saved myself from madness, and the dialog "sounds" English or Scottish even if it isn't read with an accent. Hoot, mon!
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Charles King

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006, 12:59:53 AM »

Thanks folks,
Jim and Ingrid you hit on my concerns about going totally Irish in the narration. I really want to see how others have handled the situation though. I've been reading The Snapper, and it's heavy IMO, on the accent, but it's largely dialogue. The narration is third person close and is written straight up. Anyway, I have some research to here. I guess Angela's Ashes is next, and whoever else I can find. ... Also peppering in the language with phrases and local terms is something I've been employing already, I was worried though that since the MC is telling the story that the narration should mirror his manner of speaking as well. ... Hmmm? Maybe I'm over complicating things.

Charles  8)
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Ingrid

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2006, 01:54:25 PM »

Bruen does the Irish bit quite well. (He would).

Ingrid
« Last Edit: December 08, 2006, 05:03:35 PM by Ingrid »
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JIM DOHERTY

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2006, 02:41:36 PM »

Charles,

An old-time Black Mask-er named Thomas Walsh invariably used Irish cops as his heroes.  Check out his first (Edgar-winning) novel, Nightmare in Manhattan and pay particular attention to the way he handles the dialog for the old Irish cop in charge of the investigation, Inspector Donnelly.  No phonetic tics, but Walsh makes you hear the brogue by the character's sentence cadence and choice of words.

The Irish-ness of the character came through so strongly that, when it was filmed as Union Station, Barry Fitzgerald was cast as Donnelly.

Charles King

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2006, 01:21:20 AM »

Thanks!!!!!! I have some reading to do. .... Found a bunch of turn of the century-- 19th and early 20th-- at Gaslight. If no one has heard of them I recommend going, especially if you write historicals.  http://gaslight.mtroyal.ab.ca

Charles  8)
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Michele Viney

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2006, 06:34:17 AM »

Been away from the forum for a few days and so I missed the start of all this. Being Irish there is nothing more irritating than hearing my "brogue" been mishandled in literature. A book full of "be gorrah!" (Never heard outside of Hollywood) and "t'was" and so on drives me nuts. I agree with Jim use cadences and choices of word rather than lots of contractions.

Neither is Ireland stuck in the past where we all sound like we stepped off the the set of "The Quiet Man" or "Willie O Dea and the Little People" - the latter makes me cringe!  With time, better education, and quite a bit of American television, the Irish accent has changed

Roddy Doyle is an extremely good choice to convey dialogue and indeed a few of his books have been made into films - Extremely useful if you want to get your ear in and your characters are from Dublin! Ken Bruen is better at conveying Galway and there are differences! Not so keen on Frank McCourt although he's good for Limerick - unless of course your story is set before 1950.

Hope some of this helps

Michele (who despite my name is born, bred, and thoroughly Irish)
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Charles King

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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 03:55:00 PM »

Thanks Michele,
That does help, though being Irish (family-wise, though, I didn't grow up w/ the accent's influence-- closest I came was Scotty from Star Trek, and he was Scottish-- Maybe the Irish Rovers--dating myself there.)  hasn't helped with my problem. I'm of a mind that less is more however, and because I have to write and try my hand at solving this issue at the same time, each day is hit or miss. Currently, I think I've hit on something, but only when I'm close to sitting down and editing this thing (reading, and having readers) I think will be the true test of whether the narration holds up-- let alone the plot, and everything else. Yikes!

Charles  8)
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Re: A wee-bit of a problem
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2006, 03:26:59 PM »

I agree that too much dialect is hard on the eyes. You should go for the cadence and the music of the language. Aside from Frank McCourt, P.D. James does it well with certain minor characters (notably, cleaning ladies, or "chars" as they're called in the UK), and then...there's this Irish thriller writer whose books take place in Dublin. Forgot his name, but his policeman hero has a rabbi neighbor. Kind of like Kemelman (the old "On Friday, the Rabbi Slept Late" books).

Jane Berman
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