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Author Topic: Cozy or amature detective?  (Read 45330 times)

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Charles King

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2007, 04:43:41 PM »

Well Jim,
I think we're not going to agree here. I'm perfectly willing to believe the industry definition of cozy would include Hercule Poirot, mine doesn't. He is clearly a detective in my mind, not a cozy sleuth. Too, I can see Christie being considered the "quintessential cozy writer", but Hercule wasn't one of her cozy sleuths. ... I will say again though, that I think for the 1st story in a cozy, the MC must not have training from law enforcement or like training. They can learn those skills over the course of the next books, but they can't start out that way.

Holmes is a real interesting side of the debate here too. He's the touchstone of detective mysteries, of the private consulting detective moreover, but all his skills come himself and his own pursuit f knowledge. I think his tendency to put himself in the line of trouble tosses him out of the cozy class, though.

Charles 8)
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Ingrid

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Re: Cozy or amateur detective?
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2007, 05:30:48 PM »

Well, I'm leaning towards calling all of Christie's books cozies.  Marsh is a bit different, as is Sayers.  This has nothing to do with the fact that some protagonists are P.I.s, some are amateurs (I fixed the topic), and some are policemen.  It has a lot more to do with the level of realism involved. There is nothing realistic about Hercule and his eccentricities, though he is a charming character.

Ingrid
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Kathy Wendorff

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Re: Cozy or amateur detective?
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2007, 10:52:03 PM »

Charles, you're perfectly entitiled to use any definition of "cozy" you want. I think most cozy readers, writers, agents and publishers would agree with Jim, though -- it's the tone and atmosphere that make a cozy.

That's the shared expectation that matters to me as a reader and writer, and the expectation I will keep in mind when I begin querying the gatekeepers.

Kathy W.

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penny

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2007, 09:37:56 AM »

For some reason I always thought cozies were called that because the original cozies were set in a stranded house, or snowed-in hotel or something similar, when a murder occurs and there's no way for help to arrive and one of the guests is obviously the murderer, while all the others have no choice but to stay put in their COZY rooms by the fireplace till they get murdered as well or the murder is solved.

Oh well.


Penny  :-\
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Elena

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2007, 10:45:58 AM »

An excellent observation Penny.  I don't know where the name came from.  It would be interesting to know.

There used to be quite a fad for 'locked room' mysteries roughly 30's to 60's, so you may well have put your finger on it.  I always thought it had to do with being able to read one at night in front of one's fireplace all alone without becoming scared to go to bed.  But, of course that is a totally subjective criterion.   :D

However, I did come across a lovely description of what is a cozy as publishers think about it.
http://www.writing-world.com/mystery/cozy.shtml

For me, it is a form to which dualism needn't apply, not being susceptable whether philosophically, mathematically, or logically.  Therefore a cozy is happily whatever we wish it to be within very broad, flexible, and multi-dimensional limitations.
Elena
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jsmith98

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2007, 12:07:03 PM »

My novel is an amateur detective in which reincarnation plays a major role in solving the mystery. As a result, the Borders chain classified it as "General Metaphysics" and has it on the same shelf as tarot cards and The Celestine Prophecy  :o
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B L McAllister

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Re: Cozy or amateur detective?
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2007, 12:52:35 PM »

... I'm perfectly willing to believe the industry definition of cozy would include Hercule Poirot, mine doesn't. He is clearly a detective in my mind, not a cozy sleuth. Too, I can see Christie being considered the "quintessential cozy writer", but Hercule wasn't one of her cozy sleuths. ... I will say again though, that I think for the 1st story in a cozy, the MC must not have training from law enforcement or like training. ...
???Does this mean that you insist that "cozy"  be a sub-subgenre of "amateur detective"?  I don't think i'd care to agree with that axiom.  Of course, there being no universally agreed on definition of "cozy," I guess you have every right to make suggestions toward forming such a standard, but to me every Agatha Christie I've read (and that's nearly all of them) is definitely "cozy," based on my understanding of the term before your suggestion comes into widespread acceptance.
Byron
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 12:54:32 PM by Byron Leon McAllister »
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JIM DOHERTY

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Re: Cozy or amateur detective?
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2007, 02:11:27 PM »

Elena,

Re your response to Penny's comment below:

An excellent observation Penny.  I don't know where the name came from.  It would be interesting to know.

The "enclosed setting" Penny talks about is certainly a common device in the "cozy."  However, I don't think it's a defining element, without which a mystery isn't a cozy.

I've heard that the term "cozy" was first coined sometime in the late '50's by a mystery reviewer (probably not Anthony Boucher) who disliked traditional mysteries, preferring hard-boiled, cops, spies, etc.  When he coined the term to describe traditional mysteries, it was meant derisively.   

I can't confirm that, and I don't even know which mystery critic was being referred to, but that's one story I've heard.  One problem I have with it is that this supposedly happened in the '50's, yet, as fair as I can determine, the term "cozy" didn't come into wide acceptance in the mystery community until the '70's or '80's.  On the other hand, the term "cozy" has always seemed to me to be, at the very least, condescending, and, at the worst, derisive, which is one reason I've always had a bit of a problem with it, preferring the term "traditional."  That being the case, since this story sort of confirms my assessment of the term, I'm somewhat inclined to believe it.

Two other possibilities, neither of them necessarily mutually exclusive of the above explanation:

Dilys Winn, the founder of the late, lamented Murder Ink bookstore in NYC, the first mystery bookshop ever, AFAIK, called the writers of what we now call the "cozy," "English teacake ladies," while allowing that they weren't all English, nor even all female.  Teacakes, of course, are always eaten with tea, and tea is kept warm in its pot by a knitted "sweater" called a "cozy.," occasionally used to keep other kinds of food or beverages  warm, too.  Hence the jump from "teacake" to "tea" to "tea cozy" to "cozy."

Around the same time that Ms. Wynn was calling traditional mysteries the work of "English teacake ladies," a writer named James Anderson might have made that very jump.  He wrote a novel that had a brief vogue because of its unabashed embracing of all the traditional elements of what we now call the "cozy."  It was called The Affair of the Blood-Stained Egg Cozy.  As near as I can determine, it was shortly after the publication of this book that the term "cozy" started to gain prominence as the preferred appellation for the traditional mystery.

Since the cozy has been around longer than just about any other kind of mystery, why did this sub-genre take so long to get labeled?  In my view, this is simply because, for many years, they were the only kind of mystery there was, for practical purposes.  When one spoke of a mystery or detective story or crime novel, the kind of story they were talking about was the kind written by Christie, Marsh, Sayers, Queen, et al.  The other sub-genres, hard-boiled, procedural, spy, psychological suspense, criminal protagonist, etc, are all, metaphorically, "protestant" forms of the mystery to the traditional form's "Catholicism."  So, just as "Catholic" once encompassed virtually all of Christianity, and didn't need to be called something different to distinguish it from other kinds of Christians, so the "cozy" once encompassed virtually all of crime fiction and didn't need to be called something different to distinguish it from other kinds of crime fiction.

BTW, I think the article you linked to described most of the devices associated with the cozy quite well.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 07:12:19 PM by JIM DOHERTY »
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Ingrid

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2007, 02:14:37 PM »

Well, I for one, am convinced that this is as  close as anyone will ever get to explaining the appearance of the term. Jim knows.
I don't recall encountering the term until fairly recently -- probably on DorothyL., where it certainly wasn't used derisively, though it struck me immediately as a negative term.  And yes, "cozy" did make me think of tea parties at the vicarage where ladies gossip about their neighbors and the family of the local squire. Tea, food, knitting, gardening were also topics of interest. The whole thing was very British, of a bygone era, just like egg cozies.  I doubt anyone would knit an egg cozy these days.  But the flavor of these mysteries has been adapted to other settings, many of them American.

And then, when the little old ladies and vicarages became un-PC, we got chicklit.  :)

Ingrid
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Chase

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2007, 03:13:06 PM »

For a group where many disdain anything “academic,” this discussion drifts more and more into that ethereal realm.  Semantic warning:  I’ve been taken to task here for using the term academic to imply scholarly when a few want it solely reserved for “pedantic” or “having no practical value.

Therein lies the rub.  Different terms will always have different connotations to different writers.  Insisting on a vague term like “traditional” and labeling “cozy” dismissive begs the question.  Before someone who thinks “argument” only means “bickering,” it’s freely admitted that constitutionally anyone may argue fallaciously at will.  If nothing else, it boosts the number of posts to garner maximum stars (which often seems the only evident point to some posts).

While some writers and many readers I know would prefer to abolish genres all together, not to mention smaller categories tending to pigeon hole themes, most frosh literature surveys do define genres and sub-genres.  However, most begin with disclaimers that classifications are more useful as reference tabs rather than chiseled commandments.

An example of labels gone wrong happened at Idaho State University a few decades ago.  Then an enclave of science fiction, stratification of those stories and novels became popular and found its way into classrooms. 

Soft science fiction dealing with exotic intellects seemed the preferred medium.  Hard sc-fi with spaceships and other gadgets was somehow a lesser effort, but at least more elevated than fantasies involving the “impossible,” such as time machines, vampires, and the like.  There were other levels, but at the bottom lay sword and sorcery.

Venn diagrams covered blackboards and whiteboards like ameba to show how loftier works contained more of the better themes and less of lesser subject matters.  Erasers rubbed, and new circles appeared, while tempers boiled out of the classrooms into the halls, library, and student union building.  At the time, I was enjoying Stephen King novels, the pages of which were treated like wrappings on a leper.

I find I’m in that same place in writing my present amateur sleuth novel.  If anything, it’s anti-police procedural, as the hero’s skills for induction-deduction become necessary due to the predilection for some law enforcement officers to pick and choose evidence to suit preconceived notions and of some persecutors to encourage suppression of evidence not supporting guilt of the chosen suspect.  It’s certainly not a cozy, as along with other discomforts, the killers deal in bullets and blood rather than arsenic filtered through old lace.  The hero is non-aggressive and well-spoken, so it’s not hard boiled, even though he’s skilled in defensive tactics.  In quietly bucking the system as well as the bad guys, I’d say the story meets all the criteria for a traditional non-professional crime solver.  After that, labels haze and in my mind become unproductive.

If not a change of subject, at least this last in on another tangent.  Did we establish a forum for discussing books we’ve read?  I thought Stephen King’s The Colorado Kid (ironically published by Hard Case Crime) was a wonderfully different mystery which avoids all the usual classifications of crimes and sleuths.

Chase
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Elena

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2007, 03:27:23 PM »

Jim, how delightful  :D the tea cozy connection makes a lot of sense.  Now I know why, at a very tender age, I had a passionate desire to own a tea cozy.  I was young enough that it didn't occur to me that a tea pot to put into it would be a useful thing - I just knew it went with many of my favorite mysteries.

And, I remember James Anderson's book quite well - it was delightful.  I too miss Murder Ink, both the store and Ms. Wynn added a lot to the genre.

Chase, even in 'sub-academia' life reading choices could get ticklish.  My freshman year high school English teacher told us that if we read the entire reading list then we could go on to books of our own choice - only if we gave oral reports on them.  My first and only oral report was about Erle Stanley Gardner's "The Case of the Vagrant Virgin".  This became the first entry in the list of evidence that got me expelled from that high school.

Those were the days  ;D
Elena
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Chase

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Re: Cozy or amature detective?
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2007, 04:44:44 PM »

Sub-academia?  Isn't that where Tom Clancey explains how nuclear underwater craft threaten world peace?  I suspect some ammunition for your cannoned from high school may have had to do with wandering off subject,  ha ha ha.

My expulsion began with constant challenges of Miss Conwell's assertion that Shakespeare (Poe, Melville, Stein, Hemingway, et al) meant such and such when he or she wrote such and such -- no other possibilities or levels of meaning allowed, because it said so in her teacher's manual.  So much for the infallibility of memorization.

Also, Miss Conwell loudly disdained paperback romances -- wouldn't credit them as legitimate reading -- yet they kept falling out of her purse and coat pockets.  I guess just because an academic (or sub-academic) makes a statement, it might require a grain or two of salt.

Thank goodness most of the rest of my teachers accepted challenges and reading choices as part of learning -- unlike your teacher or Old Lady Conwell.

Chase
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Ingrid

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Re: Cozy or amateur detective?
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2007, 06:19:19 PM »

Arrgh!

First of all: more power to you, Chase, with your novel.  I think we should all break the rules of what is expected and do our own thing.

Secondly, notwithsatnding bad experiences with teachers of literature, it is not true that the student's interpretation is as valid as the teacher's.  The teacher has more background information, more experience in interpreting the author's signals, and more examples to give for why she is right.  The person who has the proof that an assertion is correct always wins.  Which is why people get an education.

Ingrid

P.S.  Why has the topic line reverted to "amature"?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 06:21:21 PM by Ingrid »
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B L McAllister

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Re: Cozy or amateur detective?
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2007, 10:37:19 PM »


P.S.  Why has the topic line reverted to "amature"?
I reckon it's a matter of which particular posting one is responding to.  By responding to yours and not altering the subject line, I tacitly  ??? choose the approved spelling. Anybody who posted under the original accidental deviation can either click on modify and fix it, or, if they don't care much, not do so.
Byron
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 10:40:17 PM by Byron Leon McAllister »
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Books by Byron and Kay McAllister can most easily be obtained as e-books or in print from the publisher at http://www.writewordsinc.com/ For "Undercover Nudist," the print version is an improved version of the ebook version. The others are the same in both formats.

Charles King

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Re: Cozy or amateur detective?
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2007, 12:18:20 PM »

???Does this mean that you insist that "cozy"  be a sub-subgenre of "amateur detective"?  ... Byron

Hi Byron,
I think I said: "amateur sleuths" not amateur detective. An amateur sleuth could be your kid's fifth grade teacher, or your cat. And amateur detective is a person who has received a certain amount training and skills to do a job, but is a rookie. ... No, it's the other way around. Cozy is an umbrella label for the genre, and an amateur detective could fall under that banner. Although, to my mind, an amateur detective is more likely to fall under the detective genre, if the MC's skill set is one learned or is traceable to law enforcement, or they offer up their skills for hire. But an amateur sleuth would always fall under the Cozy umbrella. Too, a cozy sleuth could evolve into the detective genre, given enough experience dealing with crime overtime-- that is the sleuth could actively seek clients or hang out a shingle as it were. But to my mind this isn't reversible. Once the detective skill set is learned, once they advertise their services they can no longer be cozy. Sure their stories could have a "cozy feel" to them, but the MC is a detective (or a PI. or Policeman) and that's where I would classify them-- in the (or respective) detective genre. Unless the author purposely is cross-genre writing the genre's umbrella classification should apply-- ie. Cozy-PI, Cozy-Detective-- but a pure cozy--no.



Charles  8)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2007, 12:27:37 PM by Charles King »
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