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[ChesterDennis]

Hi Mystery Writers,

I pose this qusetion:

Can someone who was fired from a Government Agency (FBI, CIA, US Marshals, etc.) be hired in Law Enforcement (NYPD, for example)?  If so, would s/he need to go through the same procedure/training as new recruits in order to become a Detective?

Thanks and Be Well,
CD

[Lance Charnes]

Why was this person fired? I suspect that'll have a lot to do with the answer.

[ChesterDennis]

Mr. Charnes,

Thanks for your response.

To be honest, I haven't figured out all the details. But my story involves a woman who is basically starting her career over in another city as a Detective.  So, as an ex-Marshal, would she need to go through all the training, starting as a new recruit, then work her way up to Detective?

So what was her crime? Something that allows her to work in Law Enforcement as a Detective.
(I'm not sure what it is yet. Still doing research)

CD

[Old Bill]

CD,

Lots of things to consider...felony convictions would stop a career dead.  Misdermeanors would probably also.

Transfers between departments within a state and on the state level (non-fed) happen all the time since the training certification is fairly consistant.  Moving up to Fed status would probably involve re-training/certification.  And moving down from fed to state/city dept would depend on the fed's background, circumstances, available positions in the new dept, and, of course least we forget, what political horse this person is riding.  The same with transfers between states.

Remember, too, that the US Marshall is a political appointment by the President (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, they do not have to be from a law enforcement background, of course if certainly would be logical) but the deputy marshall's are appointed by the head marshall.  Their training and experience, IMHO, is severely restricted compared to say the NYPD or LAPD or any good city dept.

Some reasons for dismissal that could work for you could be: framed for committing some type of mal-mis-or nonfeasance or breaking dept regs (done alot in stories); or actually doing something stupid and ending up in hot water whether deserved or not (also done alot) as long as there is no criminal conviction involved; or some personal problem (done way too much).

Anyway, good luck.  Hope this helps a little.

Old Bill

[ChesterDennis]

Old Bill,

I need to think about the info you gave me -very informative.

As for reasons for termination, I was thinking along the lines of:

Loss/Death/Release of a witness.
Fraternization with a witness or partner, which then indirectly causes the above.

If those reasons for dismissal aren't a problem (for my story), then I think I'm good to go.
Let me know otherwise.
 
Thanks again for your help.
CD

[JIM DOHERTY]

Chet,

Re your question below:

Can someone who was fired from a Government Agency (FBI, CIA, US Marshals, etc.) be hired in Law Enforcement (NYPD, for example)?  If so, would s/he need to go through the same same procedure/training as new recruits in order to become a Detective?

As others have pointed out, it all depends on why the applicant was fired.

If s/he was fired for committing a crime, particularly a felony, or a violent misdemeanor (e.g. domestic violence), or for some sort of breah of integrity (e.g. lying to a superior during an internal investigation), then they would be disqualified.

If it was some sort of administrative dismissal (e.g. insubordination), they might still have a chance.  In fact, I know of one or two federal cops who were fired, and then hired by local law enforcement, and one who was even hired by another federal law enforcement agency.

As for whether or not s/he could become a detective immediately, it depends on the agency doing the hiring.  Large local agencies (e.g. NYPD, LAPD, Chicago PD, SFPD, LASO) typically have their own academies, so if someone was hired onto one of those, notwithstanding past law enforcement background, they'd have to got through the in-house academy and start from the bottom, unless they were being hired for some administrative position (like NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton being hired as LAPD's Chief of Police).

If s/he were being hired by a local agency that had nothing but investigators or detectives (e.g. the investigative bureau of the local district attorney's office), then, since there are no uniformed positions, they'd be able to go straight to investigator.

If s/he were hired by a small agency, that does not have its own academy, and in which the chief or sheriff has a lot of latitude simply because it is small, then someone with experience might conceivably go straight to detective.

Hope that helps.

[JIM DOHERTY]

Chet,

Following up on your suggested reason for termination below:

As for reasons for termination, I was thinking along the lines of:

Loss/Death/Release of a witness.
Fraternization with a witness or partner, which then indirectly causes the above.

If those reasons for dismissal aren't a problem (for my story), then I think I'm good to go.
Let me know otherwise.

"Fraternization" with a witness, particularly if the witness was a criminal who was getting a deal (as opposed to a totally innocent citizen who just happened to be in the wrong place and the wrong time), sounds to me like an integrity issue, which would probably be diqualifying.  "Fraternization" with a partner or co-worker, presuming that they were both consenting adults and there was no aggravating issue such as adultery, happens so often , while it might be a serious disciplinary issue, it doesn't seem to rise to the level of an actual breach of integrity.  However . . .

. . . letting a witness die or escape because of some slap-and-tickle on duty time, even if it's with your lawful spouse, let along a co-worker or the person you're charged with protecting, is a pretty hairy breach of trust and, moreover, an indication of gross incompetence.

It might not rise to the level of being absolutely disqualifying, but it's pretty egregious unless there're some mitigating circumstances.  Give the intense competition for any open law enforcement position, even a low-paying rural deputy's post in some Mayberry-like jurisdiction, and the number of qualified, certified police officers available, it doesn't strike me as likely that any applicant carrying that kind of reputation would be able to get a job.

Maybe, again presuming those mitigating circumstances (e.g. maybe it's his or her lunch hour, and it's an important wedding anniversary, and s/he's meeting his/her spouse in a room they've rented at the same hotel as the protected witness, and it all happens while s/he's on his/her authorized lunch break), and the chief/sheriff/DA is an old friend who's trying to help out, it could happen.  But you'd have to work to make it believable.

[ChesterDennis]

Mr. Doherty,

Excellent answers. I thank you very much.

Maybe I'll need to rethink the circumstances to which the MC is now working as a Detective.

CD

[Dave Freas]

Hi Chester.

Could something like alcohol abuse be the cause of your MC's firing?  Perhaps his (I'm going to use the male pronoun only for convenience's sake) supervisor told him it was affecting his performance and suggested or ordered he get help.  He didn't comply and was fired.  After a successful rehab, he applied to another PD and they, after checking him out and seeing the outstanding work he had done before the booze got to him, decide to give him a chance. 

Possibly, too, they could slide him into a detective position (perhaps in a specialized unit where his skills are much needed) after a crash course in their specific procedures.

Just a thought or two.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[ChesterDennis]

Hi Mr. Freas,

Thank you for your input.

I think your suggestion could eventually lead to her dismissal, but it wouldn't be the main cause of the event.

Mind you, this is mostly backstory. This all could be implied that something happened to her without fully explaining it.

A cold Federal case from her past which eventually led to her dismissal (as a scapegoat) shows up during a serial case she's working on as a (Jr.) Detective in another city.


CD

[JIM DOHERTY]

Bill,

Re you response to Chet below:

Remember, too, that the US Marshall is a political appointment by the President (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, they do not have to be from a law enforcement background, of course if certainly would be logical) but the deputy marshall's are appointed by the head marshall.  Their training and experience, IMHO, is severely restricted compared to say the NYPD or LAPD or any good city dept.

Not that I want to contradict a brother officer, but I have to take exception to this.

Although it was once true that Deputy US Marshals were trained, if at all, strictly on an ad hoc basis, this is no longer the case and hasn't been for several years.

While the US Marshal for a given judicial district is still, as you point out, strictly a political appointment by the POTUS, deputies, like all other Series 1811 Federal Criminal Investigators, are now hired through regular federal civil service.

Once hired, no matter what prior law enforcement or investigative experience they may already have, DUSM's are required to take the Basic Criminal Investigator's Course at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, GA, the same basic academy training that agents of the Secret Service, the ATF, Customs/Immigration, IRS Criminal Investigation Unit, etc., are required to successfully complete.  Indeed, the only 1811's who do not go through the FLETC criminal investigator's course are agents of the FBI and the DEA, who are both trained at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA, (and the DEA used to go through the FLETC course). 

When I went though FLETC (I went through the uniformed police course, not the investigator's course), the investigator's course ran 9-10 weeks.  Judging from my own comparative experience in the police course (comparative, because I'd been through a 12-week local academy in California prior to attending the 8.5 week course at FLETC), the FLETC investigative course is probably much more comprehensive than most local or state detective courses.  I say this because my police course was much more comprehensive, despite being several weeks shorter, than the counterpart course I went through in Cal.

Typically, after completing the basic course, the various agencies put their rookie agents through a "post-academy" lasting anywhere from a week to another 8 or 9 weeks, to orient them to the specific needs of their particular employing agency.  IIRC, the US Marshals Service post-academy is (or was when I was at FLETC) 4 weeks.  This means that DUSM's go through a total of 13 or 14 weeks training.

So it's no longer true that DUSM's are given scant training compared to municipal or county detectives in large metropolitan areas, and, for his particular specialty, a DUSM is probably at least as well-trained as a detective in the NYPD or the LAPD.

[Old Bill]

Jim (& everyone):

NEVER be afraid to contradict me.  You enlightened me alot which is what this forum is all about.  At least I was right about the political appointment. 

I had a supervisor in the 80s that retired from our Sheriff's Dept. and was appointed to US Marshall.  He was an admin-type-paper-pusher with friends in high places.  Don't get me wrong, he was probably well suited for the job.  But at the time what I saw of his deputies seemed like they where, as I said before, undertrained.  Most of their duties were transportation or Federal Courthouse related.

I am pleased to see that the certification requirements have developed so well; as, I am sure, have all the training facilities in law enforcement...thank goodness.  In this day and age our police, etc. HAVE to be well trained to handle all the crazies out there.  God bless you and all my friends and fellow LE personnel.

Old Bill

PS:  This must be why I prefer to write period pieces. 

PS2:  When I started in 1968, I was sworn, given a badge and gun and told not to shoot anyone and assigned to a division until the academy started 6 months later.  During that 6 months I was actively engaged in crime scene investigations...scary, huh?  After the academy, I stayed in that same division for the rest of my twenty...never worked the road or arrested anyone and only pulled my gun twice, thank God.  Hell-ova-career.