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Author Topic: what kind of gun  (Read 24552 times)

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dcragen

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what kind of gun
« on: September 06, 2011, 12:15:38 AM »

what kind of gun would a private detective most likely carry?  assuming that they have a permit of course
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Andy Connor

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 10:51:15 AM »

Depends on period and area.  Recently listened to audio book Spade & Archer (Joe Gores' prequel to Chandler's Sam Spade) and there is regular mention of the old Luger.  S&W Airweight Chief's Special is what I went for in regard to my own Harry Rhimes character.  It's a standard snub-nose .38 - the short barrel means less long range accuracy, but it also means it doesn't get snagged on clothing, and it takes a standard round.  Five shots, but with a speed loader the down time is minimal.  Revolvers don't jam and also unlike automatics they don't spew empty cases all over the place (and under your feet if you're not careful.)

Of course, you could go for something a little more personal, like a .22 - 12-shot revolver as used/preferred by gang bangers (though the .22 would be full load, not half load as preferred by assorted hit men.)

If it has to be an automatic (usually 9mm) then go for a Czech made CZ75b or the CZ75b Omega (which can be fitted to take a .40 rather than the old 9mm) which can hold 19 in the magazine, "plus one in the pipe" (not official police procedure, or Army either.)

If you want to have more info then take a read through

http://www.best9mm.com/

and

http://www.ccweapons.com/

Gives you a nice spec rundown in layman's terms and a picture of the thing as well.

Hope that helps?
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Lance Charnes

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 12:40:17 PM »

It also depends on his/her background and experience, and how he/she plans to carry the weapon.

A former police detective, for instance, may be more comfortable with whatever his/her service weapon used to be (for instance, a Glock 19 for an NYPD detective). A former military member may want a Beretta if he/she carried an M9 on duty.

Also, how does your detective carry the weapon? If he/she uses a belt or shoulder holster, it can be a larger weapon than if he carries it in his waistband or she carries it in her purse.
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sam709

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 12:06:40 AM »

Old school private detectives in fiction seem to invariably carry the Smith & Wesson .38 revolver with 2" barrel (snubby), usually the "airweight" model. This has been the "weapon of choice" since Sam Spade.

Similar to this, older police officers may carry larger frame revolvers, like a Ruger .357 Magnum with 4" or 6" barrel. These are fairly hefty and cannot easily be carried on the waist without "printing" (being visible beneath clothing) but are nicely concealed in a shoulder holster.

Modern police almost exclusively carry pistols ("automatics" in general lingo even though they aren't full auto). Many police carry Glock 9mm, the most prevalent law enforcement weapon worldwide.

9mm however tends to be a bit light in power and many police (if so allowed in their jurisdictions) will carry the higher power .40 cal or the .45 ACP. Modern versions of the venerable Colt 1911 .45 auto are widely used in the Southwest. Although the .45auto only carries 8 rounds vs the 15-17 rounds of the 9mm, it packs a huge punch.

So... a modern PI might likely carry a Glock model 19 in 9mm, or prefer the harder-hitting 1911-style .45 auto. Just remember that full size pistols aren't as well concealed at the waist for the private eye and a shoulder holster for the larger guns is better.

Don't get too fixated on the type of gun carried, just so you don't make common gun errors, the most prevalent being having a safety on a revolver! Some autos have safeties, some don't. Glocks do not. If you've got a round in the chamber of a Glock, you pull the trigger and it goes off. There's no "hammer" to cock because it's "striker fired" with an internal hammer that is always cocked. Conversely, the 1911 .45 must be cocked with a round in the chamber, otherwise it's inert.

A good general purpose modern weapon would be a Glock model 19 in 9mm. Check the Glock website.

And if you wish, ask more. I'm pretty familiar with sidearms.

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JIM DOHERTY

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 01:57:38 PM »

There are as many answers as there are PI's and guns.

However, in recent years, as revolvers have been more and more phased out of official law enforcement, and replaced by semi-automatic pistols, the same trend has been true in the private sector.

So it wouldn't be at all unusual for your PI to carry something like a SIG-Sauer, a Glock, or any of the many semi-autos manufactured by S&W, Colt, etc.

OTOH, if he's older, he might be more comfortable with the weapon he's always carried, which could be a revolver.

In my capacity as the police technical advisor on Dick Tracy, I suggested that the artist, Joe Staton, arm Dick with a SIG-Sauer P226 in either 9mm or .40 caliber.

Various fictional PI's have been just as various in their choice of weapons.  Spenser used an S&W snub-nosed .38.  Mike Hammer used a Colt 1911 .45 semi-auto.  Phil Marlowe used many different guns, a .38 revolver w/ a 6-inch barrel in The Big Sleep, a .38 Super Colt semi-auto in Farewell, My Lovely, a German Luger in The Little Sister, etc.  Sam Spade eschewed guns altogether, but the Continental Op used a .38 snubbie backed up occasionnaly by a brace of .32 semi-autos.

Do some research, and decide what you like best.

Old Bill

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »

Okay, here’s my reality check:  During my short stint working with a PI (Professional Investigator as he would put it), we did not carry guns.  The boss had one in his safe for those cases that took you where you felt naked without one, but generally no guns.  Most PIs now-a-days do so little work that could get them into a fire-fight that the necessity for being armed is no longer there.  Note: I, being recently retired from the force, usually did carry more as a matter of habit than need.  Had the boss known he might have been pissed, but better a pissed off boss than a dead me.

As a CSI in plain clothes, I carried for twenty years and always with snub nosed 38’s.  Starting with my first S&W airweight with shrouded hammer then a Colt Cobra airweight and finally the mod. 60 S&W stainless.  The detective/investigators were given a choice of mod. 60 or mod. 66 .357 with 2 ˝” bbl.  I opted for the lighter 60.  In the sixties the department supplied the road guys with mod. 10’s with 6” bbl. but investigators had to buy their own concealables.  On the qualification range, the snubbies had to qualify along with the big boys but only to the 25 yard line.  Never had a problem qualifying.

Note:  Sold one of my airweights to a guy that used S&W+P ammo then wondered why the darn thing blew up…duh.

Note:  The hammer on these little suckers would tear up the inside of a sport coat quick.  After a while, I made a pancake type holster that covered the hammer and kept it snug to my body.  So many of our detectives liked it that I had a hard time keeping up with the demand.

Probably not much help in this thread but thanks for the trip down memory lane.

Old Bill

PS:  I still prefer my little Cobra over my 9mm when I feel the desire/need to carry.  ;D
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sam709

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 09:25:03 PM »

Excellent feedback, OldBill. We've got authentic and genuine info on PI weapon carry. And having the fictional PIs with their various sidearms is also good.

My own fictional PI Mitch King (1st novel Blood Spiral now available) had originally carried a S&W 9mm compact, but has now changed to a Springfield micro-compact 1911-style .45 auto.

But it really doesn't matter, so long as you're consistent. If your fictional PI is an old school guy, he may prefer a small .38 revolver. If he's (or she's) a bit more "modern" then a Sig .40cal or similar might be good.

Any firearm is okay (don't worry whether the PIs in your state are actually allowed to have concealed weapons -- it is after all, fiction) but be consistent and accurate with the weapon you choose, in the way it functions and how many rounds it holds.

Revolvers are easy: you pull the trigger and it fires, and holds either 5 or 6 rounds. For a pistol (semi-auto), some are DA (double action), some SA (single action), some have hammers that require cocking (the 1911), some hammers cock themselves via trigger pull. Some have no hammers at all (Glocks) and have internal striker mechanisms. It doesn't matter, so long as you accurately depict the way the pistol works.

Also, how it damages the person who's shot. People who are shot don't magically fly backward through windows. Worst case, they simply fall down or fall backward, maybe, if hit in the head. Getting shot hurts but isn't necessarily instantly fatal -- fatal can be a fairly large caliber hit in the head or spinal penetration, or heart. Even if shot in the heart, the person may live for a while.

An "accurate" gunfight even though it's fictional? The PI is shot at, the baddie misses, the PI returns fire and hits the baddie once or twice. Then what? If hit in the head, it's over instantly. If hit in the abdomen or shoulder or non-heart torso, the baddie probably falls down but isn't dead asap.

Remember the old TV cop shows where the cop shoots with his .38 snubbie, where the baddie is across the street and 4 stories high (where he can fall). Small barrel handguns are accurate to about 50 feet or so. Longer barrel (like a 1911 .45 or 6" barrel revolver) is accurate to maybe 50 yards, in a "hot" firefight where somebody is shooting at you.

Most real gunfights occur at maybe 6-15 feet. It also happens quickly, maybe 30 seconds. Of course, being fiction, you can stretch the truth but you can't go into fantasy (unless you're writing a farce). You can have a running conflict, your PI chasing the baddie and their both shooting, an exciting scene.

In chapter 1 of my new novel Blood Storm (fall release), my PI is ambushed and narrowly avoids being shot with a shotgun in a dark parking lot. He hides and shoots beneath a pickup and hits the baddie in his leg, the baddie drops, then my PI shoots the baddie in the head (or aims at this).

He then dodges and ejects his nearly-spent magazine (his mag holds 7) and loads a fresh mag from his shoulder holster. It turns out the baddie is dead, one shot thru his neck and he's dead from impact shock. This gunfight is accurate but also fictional. And there are tons of potential scenarios, each is possibly accurate yet fiction.

By the way, the metal gadget that holds the rounds for a pistol is NOT a "clip" -- it's a magazine. But you'll see lots of stories where the gun holds a "clip". An error.

It's incumbent on you, the author, to minimize technical errors. Some are small, some are laughable by those who know about guns.

But making egregious gun errors would be like having your modern PI crank his car to start it or spend time searching for payphones and trying to use a dime in it. People would rightly laugh at this (unless you're writing satire) and will also laugh at silly gun errors. It's incumbent on you to research your subject, and if you're writing crime/PI fiction, firearms are an essential part.

Not trying to intimidate you or turn you off, just say that you need to do your homework. You've got some good resources here, several people who know firearms, and so, ask away!
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Old Bill

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 09:56:08 PM »

Okay, this is the REAL reality check...Went shooting with a friend today and after the third round fired, the breach of my new Bersa 9mm semi-auto locked up...one in the chamber and totally non-functioning.  Never saw this happen...ever.  Gun has only 50 rounds through it.  Going to the gunsmith tomorrow.  Call me old-fashioned but GIVE ME A REVOLVER ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Imagine if this happened when I really needed it.  True the revolvers have limited shots, but if you need more than 6 rounds, you better take a look around...YOU'RE IN A FREAKIN' WAR, BUDDY.

A not very happy, Old Bill
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sam709

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 10:58:28 PM »

Sorry you had a "breech" lockup, Old. I sympathize but I've fired, oh, 2000 rounds from my Springfield 1911 "Operator" model and have zero, count 'em, zero failures. Same for my Springfield XD .45, maybe 1500 rounds, absolutely reliable. Same for my two Glock .45s. I realize that it sounds fanciful that I've never had a misfeed but I keep my pistols spotless and properly lubed, and only shoot top quality ammo. Been shooting .45s since I was 8 years old and that's really my fave caliber. I find the 1911 (newer, improved models) about the finest handgun ever. Were I uniform lawman, I'd probably however carry the Springfield XD or XDM in .45 -- same accuracy, same reliability, more rounds in the mag (13+1).

Never owned a Bersa and really have no opinion on their quality or reliability, but I once owned a brand new Colt Series 70 1911 that never worked with any good reliabilty, and I eventually sold it.

I have however had excellent results with Springfields and Glocks. And of course my Ruger revolvers, too.
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HowesR1

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2011, 11:59:20 AM »

Please, whatever you do, know the gun you are writing about. Robert Parker lost me in Spare Change when he had the police find a revolver in Boston Public Gardens. Then the police searched the swan boat pond near the body for shell casings (actually its called "cartridge casings", or just "case".) A shell refers to shotgun rounds or artillary shells.

Revolvers don't eject cases.
Semi-automatics eject cases.
Full automatics eject cases.

Also, while we are at it. Bullets are not cartridges.
A bullet is the lead projectile that flies through the air. "Ammunition" or "Rounds of Ammunition" or just "Rounds" refers to cartridges. A cartridge is an assembly of case, loaded with GUN-POWDER (or black powder - there's a difference), a PRIMER pressed into the base of the cartridge casing (or case) that ignites the powder when struck my the firing pin, and the BULLET on top - to hold the powder in place.

Cheers! Here's to research! It's invaluable!
Richard
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HowesR1

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2011, 12:06:50 PM »

refering to gunfights. My CCW trainer said the rule of 3s.
A gunfight is over in:
3 Seconds
3 Shots,
3 Yards.

That's about it. One or two shots for each person, inside of three seconds, from less than ten feet away.

In stressful, tactical situations defenders must fight the urge to get closer. Distance is your friend in a gunfight. This has to be trained into the person. Everyone wants to run right up to the bad guy and either cover him or shoot him. Being closer means he can shoot you too, especially if playing possum. I've heard that "Close range" leagally can mean less than twenty feet. You want to be at least twenty feet away from someone. Cover them with the gun, call for the police or help. Don't get any closer. In real life; If they run away... let them run. Catching bad guys, even wounded bad guys are what the police are for, and it can make for a good escape or chase scene.

cheers!
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Old Bill

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2011, 04:20:25 PM »

HowesR1:

Good primer (excuse the pun) on cartridges and revolvers vs semi-autos.  I've come across writers that confuse the issue, also, and it is annoying.

On the police range, our stations were 7yds, 15, 25 & 50yds...and yes I have qualified with my little snubby at 50yds.  At 7yds it feels like you are literally on top of the target...way too close for comfort if that target is capable of shooting back.  :P

Sam709:

I researched the Bersa fairly well and have friends who own them...thought I had a pretty reliable weapon.  Nice compact gun, feels good in my hand, nice safety features.  Oh, well, dropped it off at the gunsmith's and waiting to see the results.  Bersa does have a life-time service warranty so it should be covered.

Gee, this thread is sounding more like a NRA site.  ;D
Old Bill
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sam709

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 12:22:08 AM »

With the pistol locking up so soon after purchase, it probably does need a gunsmith check, or something. If a gun is unreliable you've essentially got a clumsy club in your hand.

There are so many gun errors in mystery novels that you could likely create a huge reference library from them. The most common error is putting a safety on a revolver and it's still being done. I've read otherwise well-written books where the result of gunfire is large clouds of smoke. Er, maybe in the Civil War, but not since "smokeless" powder -- modern handguns produce virtually no visible smoke at all.

Another common error is a "silencer" on a revolver -- I fondly remember "bad cop" David Soul having one in a Dirty Harry movie. Revolvers cannot be silenced because much of the noise comes from around the cylinder, not just the muzzle. And silencers (properly called "suppressors") don't reduce the noise to a whisper, just temper it a bit -- Mythbuster tested this.

On TV we've got this requisite clicking sound whenever a gun is produced, joking called "RFE" or "rack for effect" -- heard this on NCIS where the Glock made a clicking noise. Attention, Foley artists: Glocks don't make any noise at all because they have NO external safety to "click" off. And yeah, technically the "RFE" is whenever the gun's slide is racked mid-crisis. The bad guy (or good guy) will be holding the pistol on the other person, and then halfway thru the scene, will rack the slide to show he means business. Which actually shows that the pistol was inert prior to this.

Anyway, gun errors in film, TV, or books are legion. My advice is this: no, you're not writing a tech manual on firearms and your mystery story isn't a documentary, but eliminating gun errors will still be appreciated by your more savvy readers. Letting gun errors into the book, as with any other error, is simply sloppy. If you're unsure about details, just ask -- we're here to help.

Here's a short example from my new novel, Blood Storm. My PI carries a compact 1911-style .45 pistol. He is in a dark tavern parking lot and barely misses being killed by a shotgun ambush. After dropping behind a pickup truck tire, this happens:

"I peered under the truck frame and saw cowboy boots creeping along on the other side, silhouetted by a distant streetlight. I aimed, fired, and got lucky. There was a grunt of pain and a man’s body landed with a whump. He was wriggling around on his back, trying to point the shotgun toward me beneath the truck. I fired at his bearded face three times, then rolled away to seek better shelter, putting more vehicles between myself and the shooter.
No further movement from the man and nothing else immediately threatened. I hit the release and the nearly empty magazine dropped free. I grabbed a full mag from my shoulder rig, slammed it into the pistol and racked the slide shut."

This is an accurate description of how a 1911-style pistol is used.
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sam709

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2011, 12:51:40 AM »

Okay, egg on face and foot in mouth attack here! I accidentally posted an earlier and very incorrect version of my shooting scene in the novel. Duh.

In fact, the slide would NOT be racked. Assuming the pistol is not empty, the new full magazine would simply be inserted into the frame and that would be that. So delete "...and racked the slide shut"
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Old Bill

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Re: what kind of gun
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2011, 09:57:28 AM »

Sam709:

I stumbled across the racking part, too, but wasn't going to say anything.  But the line does have a bit of flair to it, eh?  "...racked the slide shut."  Yeah good action description.  Perhaps this is why so many mistakes are made...it adds action.

I have to admit, I always cringe when seeing/reading someone checking the cylinder of a revolver before going into action, like, "Gee, did I forget to load my gun this morning or did one of my associates unload it when I wasn't looking as a joke, ha, ha."  :o

Yeah, holding a pistol on someone and then racking the slide for effect.  "Hold it right there, buddy, or I'll shoot, ah, er, right after I put a round in the chamber."  Speaking of which, one of the reasons I liked the Bersa, it has a "round chambered indicator."  No guessing whether it's loaded.

Old Bill
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