Mystery Writers Forum
General Discussion and News => Writing Advice => Topic started by: Michele Viney on October 25, 2006, 08:37:21 AM
-
Hi All
I feel quite nervous starting off a topic but here it goes.
I've had an idea about a story, but it has two different time lines one in the present and another 20 years in the past. Most of the characters will appear in both time lines.
What is your advice about maintaining the story in each time line? In a recent 'Meet the Author' thing Peter Robinson was asked the same question and he said that he ended up writing each time line on its own (I think he wrote the 'past' story first and then the 'present' one) and only interwove them in subsequent drafts. I'm not sure if this would work for me as I find that I write very organically. Sometimes I fear too organically letting the story lead me around by the nose and not necessarily where I had initially intended it to go! I must learn to be more disciplined!
Any thoughts and observations gratefully appreciated
Cheers
Michele
-
I'm not sure what you mean by writing organically.
The way I write, I'd probably just write each timeline as it spoke to me. That is, if for several days, the early timeline characters were speaking to me, I'd write that, until the later one popped up to talk to me.
Not sure if that makes sense, but that's the my my mind tends to work. :)
-
Michele,
Timelines are a general concept, relation, or fact of continuous or successive existence, capable of division into measurable portions of duration in which something develops, or fails to develop, or has developed, or will develop. Timelines may be measured in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, decades, generations, centuries, etc.. Timelines help keep events in logical order, and help develop suspense.
Date. 1-8-78
Time. 1:30 pm.
Event. Gun shot.
Date. 1-8-78
Time. 2:15 pm.
Event. Detectives investigate.
Date. 1-8-78
Time. 2:30 pm.
Event. Gun is found.
Date. 1-8-78
Time. 3:00 pm.
Event. A body is found.
The format may be used to develop a timeline for any character(s) and/or any thing(s).
Leon
-
Michele, have you read Louis Sachar's "Holes"? That book is a tour-de-force of integrating multiple storylines taking place at different times.
I don't know how he did it, but each storyline proceeds logically and pretty much chronologically, and when you switch from the past back to present-day, what you just discovered about the past drives or explains the present day narrative forward, and often vice versa. (There's one slightly jarring out-of-synch scene toward the end. Just one.)
I'm not explaining it well at all -- just read the book if you haven't already. It's a kid's book, and a quick read, and a wonderful book.
Kathy W.
-
I've done this twice, now. What seems to work best for me is to outline each story seperately, as if they were going to stand alone, then bring the two outlines together in parallel (spreadsheets work well for this) and make sure the plot points line up the way you want them to. This second step may require that you move things around to make the two stories line up.
It was much easier for me to write each story seperately, especially since they have different narrators (first-person in the modern story, third in the backstory) and are set in wildly different eras. It helped make sure each storyline flowed and maintained its internal logic.
-
Wow thanks guys
I was feeling a little daunted. But all your advice has helped.
Bob it sounds like you write like I do. I usually write the scenes that speak to me. Of course that lands me in trouble when I find it difficult to write invisible bridges between the scenes.
Leon what I intend is that my mystery has its foundations in what happens in a small town in the mid 1980's and a perplexing discovery in the same town 20 years later. Hence my two time lines.
Kathy I have heard of "Holes" it became quite a good movie I seem to remember, I'll certainly check it out - going to the library tonight.
Lance your way sounds the most logical and planned, it looks like I am going to have to bite the bullet and actually plan this one - why does that sound like homework! I feel too old for home work! Sorry whine over. Since in the early part of my story my MC is a teenager, I've been putting myself back in that mindset.
Thanks for all your help
Michele
-
Peter Robinson is right. It's the safe way.
I just struggled with a novel that spans 18 years and links separate stories of four characters with the historical events of the time. That nearly drove me mad, because I couldn't keep the years straight. My novel is straightforward chronological, but because the different characters are in different locations, it created problems. I kept misplacing two years along the way. And that was due to the fact that I also proceeded "organically."
Ingrid (who made new timelines before, during, and after the fact.
-
Amazing. I was thinking about posting a question on this very topic. It's not one I've seen discussed before on a forum (maybe I don't get around enough). I ended up making some decisions before I posted, so it might be helpful to Michele if I share.
I'm also dealing with the issue of timelines, as my next novel will alternate between two: one in the present, one set around 1910, both in Australia. I have a rough shape for both timelines, but as Kathy mentioned, I want them to interact. The one in the past will affect events in the present.
The reason I wanted to post about this was because I was having trouble deciding on tense/person. Should I set the past timeline in past tense and the present timeline in present? What person for each? In the end, I ended up writing a sketch or two as an experiment, because I think that decisions like this are entirely dependent on the particular story in question. I settled on third person, present tense for the present timeline which makes up most of the story. The timeline in the past will be in first person, past tense. This part of the story will be more like a flashback, as the sequences will be happening to someone that is possessed by a spirit. Don't worry, I'm not going all horror on MWF. Everything will revolve mostly around crime, but the supernatural aspect is an important part of what I'm trying to do.
In terms of writing the timelines, it's good to hear what others have done. I'll probably jump around between the two a fair bit as I come up with plot points in either.
And yes, this is my NaNoWriMo project, and I am insane.
-
Daniel
You are insane. But your project sounds like fun!
However the more I think about my project the more I realise that I'm going to have to think and plan and work on plot points and characters before hand - write by bible in other words! rather than let all that happen before I get to the nice bit - i.e. the actual writing. I was very interested in what you said about tense/person. that hadn't really occurred to me. I'm going to have to think about that one.
Daniel if you are interested in looking at other writers that mix the supernatural with mystery - there is an Irish crime writer, John Connolly who does it rather well. All right, I'm biased, he's a mate. But thinking about it you don't exactly have a lot of time before 1/11.
Have fun and I don't expect we'll hear from you for a while.
Cheers
Michele
-
Michele,
Sounds like you and I have similar styles. I sit to write and let the story pretty much tell itself. And yes, it is irritating when a character or plot doesn't go according to plan. I told this story before but in WARPING THE MIND, my first Arbiter novel, I was on the next to last chapter when I realized that someone I had written as a major character in the series was going to die. I did everyhting I could think of to keep him alive but, nope, he got killed anyway.
I think fiction writers are the only people who have any idea what god must go through when he looks down on us.
It sounds like what you need is an outline. My advise is to set up an outline for each time period and then, when you begin to write, just write.
Matthew S.
-
Dear Michelle, and Daniel, too. :D
Re tense: I have a real thing about hating present tense, probably caused by having a bunch of teeny-boppers (I was the only one in the room over 30, including the "professor") tell me I wasn't "forward thinking enough" because all MY stories were written in past tense and theirs were ALL written in present That was in a 1980s University Writing Class. Now of course, with people like Lisa Scottoline writing whole books in present tense, it has become passe to the academics.
However, I like the distinction of having dialog in present and narrative in past, so the reader doesn't get mixed up on what is said aloud and what isn't. So if the book Michelle is planning were mine (and it's not!) I'd use the general consensus of Present tense for dialog, past tense for narrative, and past perfect tense for anything that happened before the story or scene's present time.
One suggestion for helping the reader along would be to use Datelines at the beginnings of scenes. Just the date and place, on a line above the beginning of a scene. I once did a novella with two first person viewpoint characters and helped the reader by setting the viewpoint character's name in bold type at the beginning of each scene. Just so they could keep up with who "I" was for the nonce. I wrote that nearly 30 years ago and my fellow-students "loved" it, but i don't think I'd choose to write a story with two first-person viewpoint characters NOW.
"Then and Now" plots are hard to write, but they are well worth the trouble. Book examples include ANATOMY OF A MURDER. A movie to watch might be EDDIE AND THE CRUISERS, an oldie, but a goodie unless you HATE the Beaver Brown Band. I think they used datelines even in the movie to orient the viewer to the flashback scenes.
As long as the reader isn't confused by the finished product, write your book any darned way that feels right to you. There's NO wrong way to do it, as long as you Write.
arline
-
Sorry, Arline, but I don't follow the dialogue business. Tense in dialogue follows its own rules, regardless of the tense of the narrative.
Ingrid
-
Peter Robinon's 60's laced Piece of My Heart was a good read. Two cops working nearly 40 years apart. Both done in 3rd person past as I recall. I wouldn't want to try a book like that without some bare bones outlining at least.
Eric
-
Arline,
Please show us examples about --- distinction of having dialog in present and narrative in past, so the reader doesn't get mixed up on what is said aloud and what isn't.
Leon
Dear Michelle, and Daniel, too. :D
Re tense: I have a real thing about hating present tense, probably caused by having a bunch of teeny-boppers (I was the only one in the room over 30, including the "professor") tell me I wasn't "forward thinking enough" because all MY stories were written in past tense and theirs were ALL written in present That was in a 1980s University Writing Class. Now of course, with people like Lisa Scottoline writing whole books in present tense, it has become passe to the academics.
However, I like the distinction of having dialog in present and narrative in past, so the reader doesn't get mixed up on what is said aloud and what isn't. So if the book Michelle is planning were mine (and it's not!) I'd use the general consensus of Present tense for dialog, past tense for narrative, and past perfect tense for anything that happened before the story or scene's present time.
One suggestion for helping the reader along would be to use Datelines at the beginnings of scenes. Just the date and place, on a line above the beginning of a scene. I once did a novella with two first person viewpoint characters and helped the reader by setting the viewpoint character's name in bold type at the beginning of each scene. Just so they could keep up with who "I" was for the nonce. I wrote that nearly 30 years ago and my fellow-students "loved" it, but i don't think I'd choose to write a story with two first-person viewpoint characters NOW.
"Then and Now" plots are hard to write, but they are well worth the trouble. Book examples include ANATOMY OF A MURDER. A movie to watch might be EDDIE AND THE CRUISERS, an oldie, but a goodie unless you HATE the Beaver Brown Band. I think they used datelines even in the movie to orient the viewer to the flashback scenes.
As long as the reader isn't confused by the finished product, write your book any darned way that feels right to you. There's NO wrong way to do it, as long as you Write.
arline
-
Peter Robinon's 60's laced Piece of My Heart was a good read. Two cops working nearly 40 years apart. Both done in 3rd person past as I recall. I wouldn't want to try a book like that without some bare bones outlining at least.
Eric
I just read that. Yes, very good book and well handled, though the details already escape me.
Ingrid
-
Arlene, I used to hate present tense too. There were a number of books I deliberately passed over because I thought that present tense was gimmicky or cheating. My idea was that if I was reading the story, it happened in the past, so it should read that way. I eventually got around to reading one book written this way and found that after a chapter or so, I was 'programmed' by the writing and felt that it was natural from there in.
I'm with Ingrid that dialog shouldn't be limited to any particular technique other than writing something that rings true for that character. Some people speak in present tense a lot, others use past tense, many mix as they see fit.
The more I plan my story, the more I see that my past time line is more a series of flashbacks that serve to disorient the MC as well as give them information piece by piece. I think as long as I write these chapters separately, and make sure that the first paragraph or so signals the change to the reader, I should be fine with the headings.
But I'm loving this discussion as it's getting me thinking about all kinds of possibilities.
-
But I'm loving this discussion as it's getting me thinking about all kinds of possibilities.
Me Too!
-
Hi, Michele.
Thought of your timeline thread today while reading the latest Sue Grafton ("S is for Silence") that has just hit our Mediterranean shores.
She does something new and succeeds very well at it. While relating the present story line (the usual Kinsey Millhone narrative), she writes chapters headed with a character's name and date (in the fifties, when the crime Kinsey's investigating took place). So there's an interweaving of the present dectection with the past events told by the suspects at the time.
Worth checking out. And a terrific read as well.
Jane Berman
-
Jane
Thanks for reminding me about the Sue Grafton book, I'd forgotten about it.
My main difficulty had stemmed from the fact that my MC features as much in the 'story-in-the-past' as in the 'story-in-the-present and one of my concerns is giving away too much of my MC's past - especially as she is my amateur sleuth! That and interweaving the stories without giving away too much information too quickly - Hence the planning!
I haven't even thought about tense other than the present story is definitely being told in the past tense. I like the idea of the date headings it might let me keep the whole thing in the past tense.
I just hope I can hold on to the space-time-continuum!
Michele
-
Leon asked:
Arline,
Please show us examples about --- distinction of having dialog in present and narrative in past, so the reader doesn't get mixed up on what is said aloud and what isn't.
Leon
Okay, here goes: with an example of narrative from a student of mine.
Dialogue in present, narrative in past"
"I don't know what your're saying," Jane said. "I don't wanna be, like, difficult here, but it doesn't make sense to me." Jane hung up the telephone and left the house.
Dialogue in present, narrative in past:
"I don't know what your're saying," Jane says. "I don't wanna be, like, difficult here, but it doesn't make sense to me." Jane hangs up the telephone and leaves the house.
Now of course, if Jane is talking about something that happened in the past she would use past tense in dialogue, as Ingrid pointed out.
Past and present Dialogue: with narrative in past tense:
"I didn't understand what you said on Tuesday," Jane said. "And I don't understand it any better today! This gets more and more complicated and I don't think you're being fair." Jane slammed down the phone, shrugged, and wished her friend would stop calling with dumb remarks about her boyfriend.
Past and present Dialogue with narrative in present tense:
"I didn't understand what you said on Tuesday," Jane ays. "And I don't understand it any better today! This gets more and more complicated and I don't think you're being fair." Jane slams down the phone, shrugs, and wishes her friend would stop calling with dumb remarks about her boyfriend.
People who skim, and they are many, may mix up the "Stop calling with dumb remarks" part with the dialogue and erroneously think Jane actually said that aloud to her friend.
arline
-
Just to prove I'm not a skimmer, shouldn't the second example say 'narrative in present tense?' ;)
I find that people who aren't so well educated can sometimes speak in present tense when they're talking about the past.
e.g.: "She goes up to him, right in front of everyone, and she vomits right on his face!" said Martha, the air-stewardess.
So I say that dialog is completely driven by character.
-
Yes. Dialog is completely driven by character! Good way of putting it.
Ingrid
-
PoV will be an important choice here as will pacing. You don't want several chapters in the present and then one in the past. You'll want to establish early that you're flipping back and forth between periods. PoV. You could probably get away with a close third in both, Omnipresent in both, or first person and then close third, or some combo of these. First and first might be trickier because the reader might get confused of when they are if the flipping isn't distinct enough, or if the voice is too similar, but then you could always have a different character narrator the second timeline. ... You're really going to need outline this on a storyboard, and even if you're not an outliner, I'd recommend it regardless, largely because you're going to want see--more importantly justify-- if flipping back and forth between times in necessary. Nothing complicated. Just try an get an idea of how many scenes take place in the past and the present. You'll want some type of balance here. If it turns out the 70+% of the scenes are in the present, then deploying simple flashbacks might serve the story better. If it's the 70% are in the past, then you might want to write it from the earliest point in the past you can, and tag on the present day scenes at the ending. If you end up flipping between periods you might want to approach it from the idea of writing in blocks. Say three chapters from each period consecutively, or one, or two--maybe one at the beginning to establish the flips. And in that last chapter of each block you'll want a hook, or cliffhanger, or a question posed. This will keep the reader going through the next block. Good luck.
Charles 8)
-
Charles
That was such great advice. At the moment, I'm writing a bit of the present-day story, simply because the opener for that time period came to me really clearly and I wanted to write it while the images were clear in my mind. But the mystery element is so deeply rooted in the past and I need to find out more about that.
I like the idea of writing in blocks but I don't want to get too caught up in one time line and spend too much "time" there so that when the action changes to the other time line the reader has to flip back to remind themselves where the last bit of action in that time line left off. Goodness I'm even confusing myself!
I also like the idea of the story board, I can see that working as part of my plan. Moving slips of paper with the ideas on them - even if it is only a word or two that explains that portion of the story - I can see what needs to go where.
These are all great ideas - thanks everyone
Michele
-
Michele, someone on another board once said she storyboarded using Powerpoint, using different color backgrounds for different threads. The slides were easy to rearrange. Sometimes she printed out the slides and used them like index cards; sometimes she ran them as a Powerpoint slide show, which apparently gave her a good sense for pacing.
I haven't tried it myself yet, but it sounds like a nifty idea, and one which might work for you.
Kathy W.
-
Post-its are pretty useful, that's what I do.
Charles 8)
-
Never could make a story board work. But Post-its are the most important item in my planning. If nothing else, they remind where I stopped (page and line) and what I planned to do next. They also serve to jot down sudden brilliant ideas or, alas, realizations of a mistake somewhere in the book. Attached to the monitor, they have dates and seasons of past episodes, or lists of names of minor characters.
I couldn't live without them.
Ingrid
-
I also love the Post Its that are like tabs. Best bookmarks! I have them hanging all over the house, wherever I was when I finished the last book. The nice thing is that they don't fall out of the book when I fall asleep reading. :-[
Not to worry about my TV challenges, Ingrid. We have more TVs than any house should have, and I really prefer to read books. The only time I "watch" is when hubby turns the TV on, so of course, he's driving the remote.
Susan